Hero or Dick
Welcome to Hero or Dick!
We started this podcast with a blunt question about people: Hero or Dick?
Then we found ourselves asking it about places, traditions, entertainment, and the ordinary stuff we’d never thought to question before. Who gets praised? What gets overlooked? Why are we so sure we know the story?
We pick something that interests us, do our homework, and sit down to talk. We bring facts, opinions, and stories from our own lives, and follow the occasional tangent.
Sometimes we reach a verdict. Sometimes the question gets more interesting.
If that sounds like a conversation you’d want to be part of, join us.
~ Kate & KJ
Drop us a line at hello@heroordick.com
Hero or Dick
Hero or Dick - S4., Ep. 15 - Prisons
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Prison is meant to punish, protect the public, deter crime, and rehabilitate, but we keep running into evidence that those goals collide in real life. We dig into how incarceration works in the US, why recidivism stays high, and what reform could look like without pretending prison should be comfortable.
Thanks for listening!
~ Kate & KJ
Cold Open And Life Updates
SPEAKER_01All right. Welcome to Hero or Dick.
SPEAKER_02Your choice. It's our choice, actually.
SPEAKER_01It's our choice.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I didn't write the it's our choice. Season four episode. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes I have to fix them anyway when I'm 255. Um have we done that many? Uh overall, probably. I think we've done more than that, haven't we?
SPEAKER_02We really should know that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I'm sure somebody out there listening would like to email us and tell us.
SPEAKER_02Episode 13, 14. I think it's 15 or 16.
SPEAKER_01What's our email address, Hero or Dick? No.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01Hello at hero or dick.com.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_0216. Episode 16.
SPEAKER_01Episode 16. So how's it going, Kate?
SPEAKER_02It's going fine.
SPEAKER_01You seem a little down today. Is it the weather?
SPEAKER_02Maybe it is. Maybe.
SPEAKER_01Is it me?
SPEAKER_02It's the first time I have been out of my pajamas in a while.
SPEAKER_01I would I hated to do that to you today. I almost because I was out at the cottage. I'm like, maybe it's a crappy day.
SPEAKER_02Kate's probably it's so easy to cancel like we did last.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, but you know.
SPEAKER_01You gotta feel it. And it are you feeling it? If not, we can call it right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I guess our topic today isn't, you know, like happy fun time. Our topic today is prison.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what are we doing that for? Because it's already fucking miserable outside.
SPEAKER_02Bo, maybe it fits the topic. Maybe it fits the topic. Because it's not a happy fun time in prison.
SPEAKER_01How's uh but how's life going?
SPEAKER_02Um well I'm not in prison, so that's cool. Um, everything's good.
SPEAKER_01Did you ever make it to Kenabi's?
SPEAKER_02I went once.
SPEAKER_01I didn't get out there yet.
SPEAKER_02I didn't think they're I think they're closed now.
SPEAKER_01They are?
SPEAKER_02I think they close uh uh Halloween, but I did go to G Chi's and I think I'm going there tomorrow too. Are you? I had the fried chicken. It was delicious. Yeah, you sent me a picture. Yeah, I did. Now and I don't know if it I don't think it's homemade, but it was home fried. It was delicious. And I can't remember what I had with it, but it it's always good there.
SPEAKER_01Potatoes. Didn't you have mashed potatoes?
SPEAKER_02No. I never get mashed potatoes when we go out because we cook them at home frequently.
SPEAKER_01Well, I well, I pay for potatoes so you can have them at home.
SPEAKER_02Right. I mean give me a French fry. Sure. I probably had fry. Well I guess we can go to the picture.
SPEAKER_01I want to go to Chi Cheese. I uh just came went home before this.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh. From the cottage?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I stopped by there. And my kid came home. Julian. Julian?
SPEAKER_02I'll see to him.
SPEAKER_01He's good. That's it. Well, he got a he got a new car.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, yeah, he got an accident. It's a bitch of a way to get a new car.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not his fault. Got T-boned at an intersection. That was very scary.
SPEAKER_02Was somebody texting?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Probably. But he uh he was fine and uh Geico came through, man.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01Uh we don't get supported by Geico here on the station, but no, we don't. Not station show. But uh they I tell you, they're good. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Oh, good to know.
SPEAKER_01I've never had an issue. We've had a couple accidents and they are like bam, they pay out the claims quick. I mean, and then there was actually on Brooks car uh a couple years ago, they came back with a number. I said, No, it needs to be more than that, and did my research. And I said, Okay. Oh, and they agreed.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01So they're they work with you.
SPEAKER_02So I have um we had some problems at home, and so I'm just debating whether to file the insurance claim or not. I mean, it's gonna cost us over a thousand dollars to fix the the one problem that leads to another problem, leads to another problem. Again, it, you know, it just all leads to something else. Started with a hot water tank. Leak. Leak is not uh it's not a forceful enough word. It didn't robbed or anything, right? And it wasn't like a gushing geyser, but it leaked. But you got a new water heater, now we do have a new water heater. We have um, and then they had to come back and add the the pressure um tank on top. We got a new one of those. Water is very corrosive. That that doesn't surprise me. And so if it would have ended there, cool. Cool, but okay.
SPEAKER_00You get it, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But then it buckled our uh dining room or kitchen floor.
SPEAKER_01And well, did it leak through somewhere? Or did it is that where it was?
SPEAKER_02It leaked and it got underneath um the wood flooring in the kitchen all wet. I don't want to go into it. Just who cares?
SPEAKER_00Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02Um, but in the end, so we just, you know, so we had to have the humidifiers that was, you know, we got them from SurfPro. We had to have duty ones for a week. Yeah, and they were SurfPro was very good. Um shot off. Um it but it cost money, you know. That was, I don't know, $400, and then you know, the the new flooring. We have some flooring, but not enough.
SPEAKER_01So it seems to me that it's more than a thousand bucks a cake.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh I mean that sounds pretty expensive. It's just going big maybe under two. So I don't know. Well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Let's not ways to spend that, you know.
SPEAKER_02You know, I just hate house stuff. It's like house just runs smoothly.
SPEAKER_01Oh, and you know what happens is everything in life gets smooth and going good, and then something happens with your hands, or your car, it's something you know, nobody died, so that's fine.
SPEAKER_02And you know, we're not in dire straits, we can afford to pay for it, and that's fine too, but still it's a pain in the ass. And my kitchen's ripped up, you know. It's like, do you want a canned item? Here, look in the laundry basket where our canned items are now in the pantry.
SPEAKER_01What about your hired chef? How does he think about that? Because he doesn't I'm just kidding. Kate does not have all that not yet. But if you would see her performance on the League of Women's Voter uh podcast, Jovi did such a good job. Kate and um what's her name? Jovy. Jovi. How do you spell her? Oh, okay. Never heard of her. She uh they did a really good job talking about youth voter.
SPEAKER_02She is a firecracker, and she it was very easy to talk to her. And she I even let her videotape me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know, and I've been asking Kate to do that for however long I've been doing this. But that was really good. I was it was fun to listen to. And uh I see you guys are getting some traction on uh Facebook and stuff.
SPEAKER_02So oh good. Well, I mean, voting is done for now, but hopefully we uh incentive incentified. Is that a word?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, got people uh motivated to vote.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Young vote, that's what did it, man, and they the young young vote after we're done with the uh that just sucks because none of us are gonna get our $5,000 check. We weren't anyway, you know. What? Come on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, all
What Prisons Are Supposed To Do
SPEAKER_01right. Speaking of uh presidents, we're prisons. Um, so um okay, what is a prison really supposed to accomplish? Is it supposed to punish people, keep people safe, deter crime, or help people change?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01All of it, all of it.
SPEAKER_02Okay, but I do think um, you know, historically it was meant to punish people. Um and then it hopefully rehabilitates people, but we can get into that a little later, too. Um I'm not convinced that it does at all. Um in there has to be prisons because people, bad people do bad things, and you and not everybody can be rehabilitated. And you can't be in the general population if you're killing people or if you're you know robbing people blind or you're raping people or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Speaking of rape. Russell Brand.
SPEAKER_02Russell Brand.
SPEAKER_01He's kind of a rapy guy anyway.
SPEAKER_02He is, yeah. He is and he has said, uh here's the only credit I give him. Whoops. He has said, I led a very promiscuous life. I did a lot that I that I now regret. Right. Well, sure, everybody regrets it when they get caught. And but he says it was always consensual. Well, that's his opinion of it.
SPEAKER_01With a 16-year-old.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's his opinion of it. And uh the judge did not agree with his opinion. I don't know what his sentencing is yet, but I would guess he's looking at some prison time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but what kind of prison time?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know what prison he'll be going to. Which, which, okay, there's your segue.
SPEAKER_01We have different types of prisons. Maximum, minimum. You got the white-collar dudes that go to prison. You got the hardcore violent offenders. As of 2023, there were 1.2 million people in state or federal prisons.
SPEAKER_02That's a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01It is.
SPEAKER_02Um I did break down somewhere that there are many prisons there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So uh, you know, just because you have a lot of prisons doesn't mean that you live in a society that that doesn't need a prison. You know, you could add prisons, it's not gonna make um society better be better.
SPEAKER_01Right. I I don't I don't think it's tough because you know, and then when people get sentenced, okay, let's say, God forbid, somebody in your family um does something that lands them in prison. It's not just that person getting that sentence. It's the it's everybody.
SPEAKER_02It does affect everybody all around you.
SPEAKER_01I'm not saying that person shouldn't get a sentence, but people don't think about the parents, the brothers, sisters, everybody. I mean, it's an impact that, and then I don't know, it just it's a chain reaction. Um, and prison doesn't fix all that.
SPEAKER_02No, it doesn't, you know. I don't think it ever will either.
Where Prisons Came From
SPEAKER_02Um let's talk about the history a little bit. Early societies used cages, palace, uh, basements, aka dungeons, um, or even quarry pits. I liked that. Put that person in the quarry.
SPEAKER_01We got some quarries here.
SPEAKER_02We do. We just throw people in there. I think they could I think their quarry pits are a bit harder to get out of.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02Um, but they used to put people in quarry pits and they were holding them uh while they were awaiting trial or execution. So it wasn't the actual punishment, it was like a holding place.
SPEAKER_01Um now jail is considered. Okay, we're back. We had a little technical difficulty, but uh Kate was talking about talking about quarry pits, apparently back in the day. Yeah, um people would be thrown in the quarry and they'd be held there um awaiting trial or um and or execution execution. And then I think we got on to talking about the conditions.
SPEAKER_02Were uh used underground sewer networks. We don't want to forget that.
SPEAKER_01No, that was that's a good one.
SPEAKER_02Depending on if you're a prisoner or not. Um they also use forced labor as in slavery, as typical penalties, which I think that would be a deterrent. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then um, you know, poor Vagrant petty offenders, they gave them hard labor instead of uh imprisoning them, which is kind of maybe sometimes worse.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because you can work them to death.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01But they were trying to get something out of them, right?
SPEAKER_02But yeah. Um, and then in the 18th century, there was a kind of a reform began. Uh John Howard was the gentleman's name. He exposed horrific disease-ridden jail conditions because nobody had any oversight, and they just did it because nobody really cared about prisoners, right? And then let's see, after the American Revolution, new state systems replaced public whippings and executions with confinement, hard labor. And that every state became kind of different in how they how they held people and what they did with them when they held them. And I think that's still true now. If you're in if you're in prison in Michigan, it's different from being in prison in Wisconsin in that you get different um benefits, I guess you could say. And also when you get out, every state has a different way of dealing with it. Some people just give you some money and say see ya, um, or they send you to uh um, you know, uh uh uh a hotel or a house houseway house where if you were in for drugs, you're surrounded by drug people. So that's probably not the ideal place for you to be.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um Michigan, forgot. We're like how many prisons do we have? Like four or five, we're up their ways on number of prisons. California, I think, had the most.
SPEAKER_02Um, I only have the breakdown in front of me of state prisons. There's 1,566 facilities in all the state prisons. There's 50 states, yes, and then that houses just over a million people. Local jails, though, there's 3,116 facilities. So that houses about a half a million people at any given time. The federal prisons, well, it's uh it this says there's 98 to 122 facilities, depending on administrative groupings. Uh I'm not sure what that means. Yeah, it houses over 200,000
How The US Prison System Is Built
SPEAKER_02people, and then you have juvenile correction facilities, which aren't really prison but kind of like prison. Uh 25 to 30,000 people, uh, 1,300 facilities, and don't forget immigration detention facilities, because even those little aren't supposed to be like prisons, they are. And as a well, I don't know um how recent this number is. It says 45,000 people.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. It's pretty horrific, though. I was just listening to something on NPR a couple weeks ago about um some of them in California. How horrible they were, yeah. Yeah. I mean, some people kicking a bucket in there.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, there's no medical, there's no um it's very limited the care that you get. And these are again immigration facilities, so they shouldn't be like a prison, but they were grouped with prisons.
SPEAKER_01Well, and the immigrants that are supposed to be there are the ones that have committed crimes, but most of the people there haven't committed crimes, except is totally fucked up.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, they might they might even be getting out in any other circumstance, but not there, they're not but you can, if you volunteer right now, to go back to whatever country or go to another country, they'll give you like three grand and you can split.
SPEAKER_02Huh, but that doesn't seem like a good idea either. So there's that, you know, that's a whole other thing. That's a different type.
SPEAKER_01But anyway, um prisons. Federal federal categories of prisons. I got them ready.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Minimum security camp, dormitories, limited or no perimeter fencing, work, and uh programs for people.
SPEAKER_02So for lesser nonviolent crimes.
SPEAKER_01Then you have low security. Do you have double fences, mostly dormitories and cubicle housing with more staffing than camps, whatever that means. Um, medium security, stronger perimeters, mostly cells, and then tighter internal controls, high security. They have the highly secured walls, fences, cells, and then you got more, they're more monitored, and then administrative detention, medical care, or extreme security. So there must be just different versions, you know. Yeah, I guess if you need if you need extra care, which hopefully you get.
SPEAKER_02Um, but then there there are cases of people being released from prison because they have cancer and have a terminal um outlook, and so the prison will release them for one. Why can't we? And not to be nice, but just so they don't have to pay the cost. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um I also have numbers on the most serious uh offenses, like how many
Who Ends Up In Prison
SPEAKER_01people are in prison because of it.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01All violent offenses, 62% of the people. Wow. Um murder, non-negligent manslaughter, 15%, rate 15, robbery 11%, aggravated assault or simple assault, 14%. Negligent manslaughter. Only 2%. Uh property offenses are in there with 12%, burglary is seven percent, fraud is one. How about drugs? 12%.
SPEAKER_02How many do they give a drug number?
SPEAKER_01Um 131,000 people. That's gone down.
SPEAKER_02It has. I mean, as as well as one of those marijuana has become legal in a lot of states, uh I mean you think of the waste of money that people because they're these were state prisons, by the way. Okay. Um, you know, you uh I've lost my trades on it.
SPEAKER_01Federal prisoners uh for drug offenses, 45% for white collar basically crimes. Isn't that nuts? It is.
SPEAKER_02And I I wonder.
SPEAKER_01Weapons charges. Must be coke.
SPEAKER_02Meth.
SPEAKER_01Meth. Man, I love that meth. Coke in the meth. Just kidding.
SPEAKER_02Oh, not thinking about meth.
SPEAKER_01Anyway. Ruining this town.
SPEAKER_02And uh meth and what's the other rugby bacon?
SPEAKER_01I don't know, you're scratching a lot there. What are you on? I'm just taking heroin?
SPEAKER_02Uh fentanyl. Fentanyl.
SPEAKER_01That's super stupid, that one.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. I don't get the buzz off of it. Why would you? I don't mean I'm taking it and I don't get the buzz. Right. I just don't get what you what someone would get out of that.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_02But like everybody's different.
SPEAKER_01It could kill you. Sounds like it kills quite a few people.
SPEAKER_02It does. Or it kills your life.
SPEAKER_01Maybe how many times have you been in jail?
SPEAKER_02Uh oh boy. Never.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Never.
SPEAKER_01That wasn't once.
SPEAKER_02Were you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I think I picked up for D.
SPEAKER_02Not and I was a kid. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I was in my uh early twenties in Minnesota.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_01And I was uh driving my friend's Jeep because he couldn't drive. Neither of us probably should have been driving. And I thought it'd be fun at three o'clock in the morning to take the Jeep in a snowstorm through a city park and go wheeling.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's probably not a good idea.
SPEAKER_01And we got stuck. Oh, I'm not sure. And I was trying to dig it out with my hands, the front tire, and this lovely young officer. She arrested us. Arrested me. No, he got to go home, that's right.
SPEAKER_02Oh, he did. Did he drive his jeep home?
SPEAKER_01No, his girlfriend picked him up. And then uh I I had I was in the cell only a short time. She's like, ah, you can call somebody if you want. So I called somebody and stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid. It could have been way worse. Could have killed somebody driving like this. Five years sober as of yesterday.
SPEAKER_02Oh, congratulations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks. All right, next. What have we got?
SPEAKER_02No more jail time for you.
SPEAKER_01No, my god, no.
SPEAKER_02Well, and then you think about how many people are in jail because of one stupid decision. Probably a lot of them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And a lot of people who are in jail or prison are probably there because of many stupid decisions. But a lot of times it's put the keys away, don't drive and and kill somebody, let alone yourself, you know. It it's just yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And then um I don't know if but three let's say but I can't talk. Federal or state jurisdiction um race makeup of prison. Oh touchy subject. Um three hundred and this are estimates. Thirty-two percent are black non-Hispanic, thirty percent are white non-Hispanic. That's pretty close. That's really close, actually.
SPEAKER_02Within five percent.
SPEAKER_01But when you compare that to the population, yeah, there's more, yeah. Um Hispanic, 23%, American Indian 1.6. They probably have their own stuff going on, they have their own reservation.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's a good question. I'm not sure. They they do have their own laws, but I don't know if they have their own prisons or jails.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Yeah. We should have studied more. Asians. Nope. 1.3.
SPEAKER_02When I started looking at the subject, it was so it's huge. We should have picked something other than prisons because focused maybe on uh because I just feel like it's so broad. Yeah, but um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um we didn't. And then you get the folks that are wrongfully imprisoned, yeah. And that actually happens, and there's more and more people getting released because of DNA.
SPEAKER_02Because of DNA. There's some getting caught because of because of it, but there's a lot getting released because they're like, uh and then just yesterday or the day before, the governor of California Newsom pardoned 500,000 or something like that. Well, what was it?
SPEAKER_01I thought it wasn't ship jump. Maybe it wasn't that big.
SPEAKER_02A lot of people's five hundred and some. Uh well, he changed all the deaths.
SPEAKER_01Oh, from death to life in prison to life in prison.
SPEAKER_02Do we agree with that? I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I mean, death row, you're on death row for a long time. You're not there for five minutes.
SPEAKER_01And you're there because you probably should be there.
SPEAKER_02Right. But for that one person who is on death row whose DNA changed to the the trajectory of the trial, yeah, then maybe they shouldn't be.
SPEAKER_01I wonder what that does once you are once he does that, if that opens up any loopholes for people to get new trials.
SPEAKER_02Ugh. That would be 500 and whatever new trials. I don't know what the stipulations were. I don't know either, but yeah, I saw that too.
SPEAKER_01That was pretty interesting.
SPEAKER_02So let's see. Um, in 1891, the Congress did pass the Three Prisons Act establishing the first federal penitentiaries, which are Leavenworth. Everyone kind of knows that one. Leavenworth, Atlanta, and McNeil Island. And I don't know, I think Leavenworth's still a thing. And then they in 1930 they did have the creation of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. And their acronym is Bop, which I think is too fun for what it is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The and just here's a fun fact: Bop's William K. Marshall III uh was the first one. And Joshua Smith, who was a former inmate, but pardoned by Trump, worked under Marshall. Oh, the I'm sorry, William Marshall the third is now the head of Bob. And Joshua Smith, a former inmate, pardoned by Trump, who worked under Marshall, was appointed.
SPEAKER_01That seems weird.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he was pardoned and then hey, co-work for the Bureau of Prisons. He left after a year of service.
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, great.
SPEAKER_02That's just kind of depressing. That's all depressing. It's all depressing.
Rehabilitation Gaps And Recidivism
SPEAKER_02So do prisons work? Do they actually rehabilitate people? Well, I talked to a prisoner yesterday, and he had he said no.
SPEAKER_01Makes them worse, probably.
SPEAKER_02His by his estimation, 75 of the guys in there will be back again because they do not want to change your lifestyle. They're just doing their time till they get out, and then they will go back to whatever they were doing before they got in there. Um, and then for those who do want to change, um, and he's been in two years of a four-year sentence, so he's halfway in. For those uh like him who want to change, he is just starting Narcotics Anonymous. I don't know why it took so long to get him in there, but why wouldn't you start that? There's no therapy, there's no, you know, you can go to church, so a lot of people do that's their therapy, I should find God, or not even find it, you know. They they go because it's something that is gets them out of the cell. Well, it doesn't just get them out of the cell though, but it's something that's not so negative. Sure, you know, so even if you're not a religious person, you might go to church just because that's the only kind of therapy you're getting.
SPEAKER_01And different socializations, yes, yeah, instead of yeah, yeah. You got a pretty mouth, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, and and that you get no therapy or no related opportunities is crazy, and um and it costs extra money to have anything um good or extra. And I get it, you're in prison. It's not again, it's not happy fun time where you get snacks all the time or whatever, but it still should be livable conditions. So to get any good food or to get any extra things, you have to either have somebody on the outside sending you stuff or putting money on your car. If you don't have anybody on the outside, you're kind of fucked because the you know, you in certain prisons you can have a phone, you can have you can have those things, but only if but you have to pay for it. And that's I guess that's reasonable, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_01It's tough because uh you do something shitty that breaks the law, that's the chance you're taking. It is. But and then you get in there, and you maybe maybe as soon as you get in there, you're like, you know what, I need therapy, I want to get better, but it's not available to me, perhaps.
SPEAKER_02I have an addictive personality, I was on drugs or I was drunk, that's why I did what I did, and there's no help.
SPEAKER_01You can say, Well, you should have thought that before you got in here, but then were they getting the therapy and help they need before that?
SPEAKER_02Right. So that is one thing that that um a lot of other countries do is address any problems or not even problems, but i issues or things like that. Sure. Get to the core, okay. Why did you do that? Were you abused as a child? Were you, you know, were whatever the circumstance. So they get to the the core of that before it gets, you know, it's almost preventative versus reactive.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It kind of needs to be.
SPEAKER_02It it should be.
SPEAKER_01But then that's you know, you could tie the whole, we're gonna get off track. I always get off track, but you could tie the whole prison situation into schools, you know, parenting the whole shit in Shain. Because if you're not getting the education and guidance and support you need, and there's some people are gonna be like, oh you goddamn pushy. You know, no, right. No, the older I get, I realize people need to get care. Yeah, they like they do.
SPEAKER_02If you're not getting it, and you don't even know you need it because that's not your environment, then how are you supposed to rehabilitate? It's just like saying the a child abuser, you don't want to, I don't uh uh there's no excuse for it. But if that's all you know, that's all you know, and that that's why it perpetuates. So um um and the residiv uh I'm gonna say this word wrong. Recidivivs.
SPEAKER_01The people who go back to prison oh yeah, return back to prison over and over again.
SPEAKER_02This is a broad USA kind of uh statistic. Re-arrested 62 percent within three years, and of that 39% return to prison.
SPEAKER_01Some do it just to get back in prison because they want to get back to what they know.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Comfort.
SPEAKER_02And if that's all you know, if you've been in prison, you know, in and out of prison, you know, you're getting three squares.
SPEAKER_01Did you uh see well, there was this experiment back in the 70s, you're prior to the Stanford experiment. They have that on Netflix right now. They're they redid it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, they did.
SPEAKER_01And this time, instead of um prompting the people to behave poorly, uh, because that's what happened in the past, they realized that it wasn't really a control environment and that they were encouraged to be nasty to the prisoners. Um, this one here, they're not, but I just started watching it and I can see that shit's gonna go off the rails pretty quick. Just the personality Netflix, yeah, that it's called the new Stanford experiment or things interesting.
SPEAKER_02The other thing I want to mention before we forget is that drugs are readily available in prison, which is bizarre. It is. How can that be?
SPEAKER_01But it is, and there's a lot of crooked guards out here that get the people the stuff. And it's they I don't I shouldn't say a lot, I don't know, but if you hear about it, if whoa, I'm guessing falling apart here. Sorry about that. Oh, did you do that? I thought I did. All right.
SPEAKER_02I'm guessing that you know, prison guards maybe they don't get paid a lot of money, and so briberies uh work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I should have I have a friend who was a prison guard. I should have had him.
SPEAKER_02Um I talked to um I know a guy who was a prison guard, and he said, you know, you can only do that so long.
SPEAKER_01That's a horrible job, I bet.
SPEAKER_02That's a horrible job. He said it really gets to you, it was starting to affect my home life. Yeah. I just couldn't do it anymore. Yeah. So yeah, drugs are readily, readily available. Whatever.
SPEAKER_01That's probably why you don't start narcs anonymous the first day, right?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, yeah. But when you go to that, even if you were on drugs.
SPEAKER_01Maybe. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I don't know.
SPEAKER_01A lot of people sure find Jesus in the jail.
SPEAKER_02They do, but I think it's because they got nothing else going on. I mean, there's nothing else to do. Boredom, probably, for one thing, but uh yeah. So uh
Daily Life Inside And Contraband
SPEAKER_02uh one thing I wrote down was um this uh um there was this great website called Prison Prison Journalism Project.org. They have lots of interesting stuff on there. And one was an example of a daily prison routine, and this guy is not uh I don't know what prison he was in, but 6 a.m. wake up, make bed, head count. 6 30 breakfast, they get eggs, oatmeal. It wasn't horrible choice, but it was, you know, um, I don't know you could say eggs, but you know, you eggs have a are they fresh eggs or are they or the watered down eggs? The powdered eggs. Um then they do 7:15 return to cell. They clean floor, he cleans the floor sink toilet with a rag. Uh eight o'clock exercise, enclosed rec area for one and a half to two hours, 10 a.m. downtime headcount. He said I go on my tablet. I play games, I have a snack.
SPEAKER_01You have a tablet?
SPEAKER_02Yes, a tablet. I'm guessing he's not in uh 11 a.m. headcount again, and a lockdown headcount, and then 11:30 downtime, socialize shower, use phone, 1 p.m. lunch, 1:30 return to SLs, headcount, 145 relaxation, nap, music time. Music on his tablet, probably 3 p.m. He was drawing and having a cup of coffee.
SPEAKER_01Sounds like a good day.
SPEAKER_02It doesn't, you know, this is you're not making it sound horrible, and I think it needs to sound horrible because it is horrible. 4 p.m. headcount again, lockdown headcount, 5 30, dinner, 7 p.m., movie and cell.
SPEAKER_01What the fuck is going on?
SPEAKER_02But every prison is a bit different.
SPEAKER_01No, I get it.
SPEAKER_02But just that's not that hard.
SPEAKER_01The only hard part is day after day it's the same thing.
SPEAKER_02Day after day, it's the same thing.
SPEAKER_01So is everyone's life?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah, a lot of people's lives are day after day the same thing, too.
SPEAKER_01There are people out in the world living worse than that.
SPEAKER_02There really are.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's dangerous in prisons. And you're in the fucking south.
SPEAKER_02So you have gangs in prison. I mean, that's probably a whole other um other show that I don't want to do.
SPEAKER_01Hey, orange is a new black.
SPEAKER_02Orange is a new black.
SPEAKER_01We'll get to those though, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um what else did that guy say? Uh does he get like a massage?
SPEAKER_02Journalismproject.org. Uh no, he does not get a massage.
SPEAKER_01And maybe Thomas' cellmate.
SPEAKER_02The guy I talked to just was very adamant that now it's not rehabilitating. We're doing our time. We're getting, you know, I'm doing my time. I'm gonna get out. I'm not going to a halfway house because I know that's not gonna be good for me. Sure. Um, but luckily he has family and friends that he can go to that will embrace him back into uh, you know, his is when he's not in prison when he's
Getting Out And Reentry Problems
SPEAKER_02a civilian again.
SPEAKER_01Now think of that. Let's say you're in prison for five years. Let's say you kill somebody. Well, you guys should be in there longer. Not you, though. You'd probably get out. You'd get out. But no, so you get out and you're looking forward to getting out, but also it's scary because the world's gone on without you. So there's that, and then you don't know if you're gonna be accepted by your friends, and then in in all intents of purpose, the world don't want you back. No, nobody wants a person. They don't make it easy to hire a presentation or an ex con. You probably get resentful, hate the people around you, the world around you.
SPEAKER_02And so it's great to be free, but uh you know, your freedom has some limitations because of how society's going to treat you. And that's not I was gonna say fair, but maybe it is fair. But if you go in and do your time, that you know, you this is what we said you have to do, and okay, now you can get out, you're you're rehabilitated. But the world hasn't rehabilitated to accept you.
SPEAKER_01Sure, yeah. So I mean just getting a job.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, and if you don't have family and friends, you get out, and in some seats you get, you know, a set amount of money and a bus ticket to wherever. And that's it. You know, right? See you later.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But but you got yourself, I don't know. It's possible.
SPEAKER_02So again, it's not supposed to be happy fun time, it's prison or jail or you know, whatever, incarceration. So yeah, messed up. I think um, all right, let's do something fun.
Prison In Movies Music And Slang
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02What's fun about prisons?
SPEAKER_01The movies, the movies, good movies. Shawshank Redemption.
SPEAKER_02The best movie in the world.
SPEAKER_01Such a good movie.
SPEAKER_02I can watch it over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Andy Dufresne.
SPEAKER_02And you think about okay, so I don't know the character's name, but that old man who was in prison the whole time, he got out and he was like, I don't know what to do. Yeah, bagging groceries. I keep asking to go to the bathroom, boss.
SPEAKER_01Pretty messed up.
SPEAKER_02We can always tell when someone watched that at work because they can go, boss, can go to the bathroom.
SPEAKER_01Like, shut up. It is a great movie.
SPEAKER_02It is a really movie.
SPEAKER_01Then they got the green mile.
SPEAKER_02And it uh uh Shawshank Redemption came from a book called Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption by Stephen King, Stephen King, who I just saw on TV as a new book out.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02He is so cool, he's a weird, quirky guy, but I love it.
SPEAKER_01I actually I probably mentioned this last time. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02You had some published?
SPEAKER_01No. Um uh Carrie. Yes, this series on Amazon Prime. Yeah, it is phenomenal. Oh, okay. It's really good. It's not like most Stephen King stuff is pretty cheesy. Like, you know, the series or they're not that good, but this is well, yeah. I've watched a few of like this is like super good. It has tuned into the whole thing of uh bullying, like with phones and social media.
SPEAKER_02Do they use the Tampounds at or though?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's fucking we talked about that scene um today when I saw him on the view.
SPEAKER_01When you were saying that you saw him, I was like, Man, you met him?
SPEAKER_02No, but I met his son.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's right. You did about a year ago. Yeah, I made him a hat. You did. You made Sederis a hat too, didn't you?
SPEAKER_02I didn't have to wait, wait.
SPEAKER_01You made how many people famous people have you made hats? Not famous, celebrities, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Uh just those two, I think.
SPEAKER_01No, no.
SPEAKER_02We did one to Gretchen Whitmer.
SPEAKER_01Does that count? It does count.
SPEAKER_02Um, I had one from Bernie, but I didn't go to Bernie.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02He needs a hat. He needs a hat.
SPEAKER_01Um, other prisons in pop culture.
SPEAKER_02Uh Cool Hand Luke.
SPEAKER_01Oh, what we have here is failure to communicate. It's a great um Orange is a New Black.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Then you got the Johnny Cash performance at Folsom Prison. That was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and legend has it that um uh Myrtle Haggard was in the audience and he influenced him to rehabilitate and get out and do your music career.
SPEAKER_01No shit.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Myrtle Haggard was kind of a badass. I like those. I'm not a country music guy, but I like the old stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I just heard boy named Sue on the way here.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, I can I can identify with that.
SPEAKER_02A boy named Kim.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, I guess so.
SPEAKER_01Jesus, man. I got fucking brutally picked on. Did you ever think about it? Smacked in the head. I don't want to say it came. Okay. I really don't. Because it doesn't help. Alice. Pretty much.
SPEAKER_02Oh, why not? Alice is a good name.
SPEAKER_01I like the name Alice.
SPEAKER_02Uh, I do too. Um, there's lots of songs about prison too. Um Pulsome Prison Blues by Johnny Cash. Midnight Special. Did you know that was about prison? CCR and um Lead Belly.
SPEAKER_01Nope.
SPEAKER_02It's about the train shining a light on the inmates in jail. Look at midnight special. I don't know me. Come on.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't. Oh that's cool.
SPEAKER_02Jailhouse Ratch, pussy song, but whatever.
SPEAKER_01Prison sex by Tool.
SPEAKER_02Uh my favorite favorite is by System of a Down. Prison Song. I love that song.
SPEAKER_01They're a pretty good band.
SPEAKER_02I love them. I fought the law by the Clash. Uh Snoop has one. Murder was the case. Um, okay. Um, and one more fun part of there's not fun parts about prism, but the different names. I thought it was interesting. You know, penitentiary, correctional facility, the jail, detention center, reformery, penal colony, which always makes everybody giggle. Uh the brig, the stockade, the dungeon, the bastille, the slammer, the clink, the cooler, the can, the poke. The hoosko, the housko, the big house, the hoosk, the whole, and my favorite, the gulag.
SPEAKER_01The what? The gulag. The gulag.
SPEAKER_02It sounds like a fun place.
SPEAKER_01Does not.
SPEAKER_02The gulag.
SPEAKER_01It sounds like Frankenstein would be there. Some other ghouls.
SPEAKER_02All right. So seriously though, I think persons are dicks.
Reform Ideas And The Verdict
SPEAKER_02They don't work as they're intended. I think if you, you know, it would cost milli billions of dollars to invest in the root cause of crimes. But I don't know. Could it be fine? Uh alternatively, you could do fine, supervised, um, community settings. I don't know, that sounds like prison to me. Probation, electronic monitoring, home detention, halfway houses, community service for lesser crimes. But again, invest in the root cause of crime. Because, but you have to have some place for bad people to go. Yeah, there's always because bad people are always going to be bad people, no matter the circumstance, no matter if you get to the core of their evil, and they cannot be in the general population. And that's what prisons are for. So prisons do need some reform. But should never be a comfortable place either. It's meant to be a deterrent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, P. Diddy.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. What do you think?
SPEAKER_01About P. Diddy?
SPEAKER_02No, about prisoners.
SPEAKER_01Um I mean they're dickish, but they should be, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Should they be heroes? Oh, I guess.
SPEAKER_01They can be if you're the one that your family member got killed. It's a hero.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01But in yeah. I don't know. It's a complicated topic. It is.
SPEAKER_02It is. It's huge. About people who were getting electrocuted or oh, like that lady recently? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And she got into be the shot. She got she got killed somebody. Um she survived the execution.
SPEAKER_02She did. Well, it wasn't an execution, it was a lethal you're killing her.
SPEAKER_01Executing.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, I guess so. I was thinking electrocution.
SPEAKER_01Oh. Some people think.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, she had a uh lethal injection that she survived.
SPEAKER_01But she was actually trying to tell them where to put the needle because they put it in so many times, because she had like a blood issue or something. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Whatever. Maybe that's just what a mess that was.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she's still around, too.
SPEAKER_01What do you do with that?
SPEAKER_02I don't know.
SPEAKER_01We can't fix anything, Kate. Now I'm depressed.
SPEAKER_02So let's go to Fast Five.
Fast Five November And Holidays
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So it's November and it's kind of rainy, but still, how do you feel about November outdoors?
SPEAKER_01Dick in Michigan, anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. The colors are gone. You know, the tree colors.
SPEAKER_01Gray.
SPEAKER_02It's gray day. We have the the time change, which is the other one. What do we think about the time change here with Dick?
SPEAKER_00Dick.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm with you on that one too. Um, however, November does bring cozy time. How do you feel about cozy time?
SPEAKER_01Cozy time? Yeah. I'll like it.
SPEAKER_02Who wouldn't like it?
SPEAKER_01Cozy time in the you also have the tendency to get in a lot of cozy time because it's dark so early. It's like I'm just putting on the picmas.
SPEAKER_02Don't overdo the cozy time, then it won't be fun anymore.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I think it could still be fun all the time.
SPEAKER_02All right. Okay, in honor of Cassidy and Doug on their road trip, how do you feel about Bucky's?
SPEAKER_01Is that the grocery store?
SPEAKER_02It's a big store of everything. Of everything, but it's a roadside store. Oh, okay. And they have like a hundred gas pumps at every Bucky's, and they they kind of overtake the in the whole interstate sideline. Yeah. Like a lot of people. I don't know, some of them are pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01In their in their visit a place like the two, like there's a big one on I-80 or whatever where it has a fucking dentist's office in it. Doctors.
SPEAKER_02And then anything.
SPEAKER_01People don't like them.
SPEAKER_02Well, some people don't want them in their neighborhood or in their wherever.
SPEAKER_01I'll say a hero, especially if I'm traveling traveling.
SPEAKER_02They do have great snacks. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Okay, hero. I gotta say something good.
SPEAKER_02Hero, but kind of good. I went, I've only been in one once, and that was a little intimidating, I gotta say. Overwhelming so many people. There were so many things.
SPEAKER_01I don't like many people.
SPEAKER_02We I don't like people like that. Uh but how do you feel about okay? Is it too early to prep for the holidays?
SPEAKER_01No, actually, I'm kind of hoping I want to watch a Christmas movie already. Yeah, I can watch Christmas movies. But I can't. I gotta wait till December 1st.
SPEAKER_02I have Christmas music on my radio already.
SPEAKER_01You do?
SPEAKER_02And do you?
SPEAKER_01Is it Holly? Holly station? I have oh good, good for you. You get your shopping done?
SPEAKER_02Uh I didn't do some shopping already. I have the son-in-law's done, and I have some other stuff.
SPEAKER_01Brisket sandwich.
SPEAKER_02I'm kidding. Didn't freezer duck.
SPEAKER_01There you go.
SPEAKER_02No, I actually have uh my son-in-law Mike. I already bought him something. Yeah, I bought Doug something.
SPEAKER_00You're killing it.
SPEAKER_02I I well I have two done. No, I have more than that because I have some other stuff. So I'm I better not think more.
SPEAKER_01And we'll be here. Oh, Thanksgiving though. We forget about that one.
SPEAKER_02What about it?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. That's a holiday.
SPEAKER_02It is a holiday.
SPEAKER_01That's pretty good.
SPEAKER_02There's no is there's Thanksgiving music though.
SPEAKER_01There isn't. There is. What's our next topic gonna be then?
SPEAKER_02Should be but we'll meet before the it's not gonna be prisons.
SPEAKER_01I feel you look like you just want to walk out in front of a truck.
SPEAKER_02I just feel so torn about prisons. I mean, they have to be there, but I I do feel it's a mess. Like it's not doing its job. My god, it's like the administration, and that's where I'm gonna end every time, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Okay,
Final Thoughts And Goodbye
SPEAKER_01okay. All right, well, thanks everybody.
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